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Interesting Twin Vs Triples Article - Old muscle Vs New Muscle started by XCR HYPER TRIPLE
April 2nd 2009 at 4:32 PM  [ Modified April 2nd 2009 at 4:33 PM ]
 
XCR HYPER TRIPLE Gold Ribbon
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Tech Notes: Power and efficiency
Cylinder size matters, but in this case smaller is better
By Olav Aaen
Published: Friday, March 06, 2009

Many sleds from the 1990s created more power than today's machines, thanks to their 3-cylinder engines like the one in this 1998 Yamaha SRX 600.



Ski-Doo has always packed power into its Mach Z models. This 1996 Mach was no exception with its 774cc liquid-cooled Rotax triple.




Yamaha packed plenty of power with its 3-cylinder models. This particular engine is from a 1998 model.




Polaris runs this 600cc 2-stroke twin in several of its current sleds.




The 1997 Arctic Cat Thundercat was another speedster with a honkin' triple.Dear


The Polaris XCR 800


AmSnow,
"I am disappointed in the new sled technology; it does not seem to help much. My old triple sleds were faster and often got better fuel mileage than my new twin. Why are we going backwards in so many areas?"
-Disappointed Sledder

We've heard this complaint many times during the last several years, and there is a sizeable group of snowmobilers who still swear by the older triple "muscle machines." Polaris XCR, Ski-Doo Mach Z, Arctic Thundercats and Yamaha SRX, SX and Vipers are still popular with the performance crowd.

There's a good reason for this, a 1000 Cat came stock with triple pipes and 182 hp, still more ponies than you can get from all but Cat's new Turbo 4-stroke. A good older triple can be had for $5,000 or less, if you can pry it loose from its owner. Most owners also modified their triples with pipes, big bore kits, and larger or bored-out carbs, upping the horsepower to the 200 to 250 range, depending on the mods.
There also are a number of changes in the chassis technology that have influenced mileage. Newer sleds have much more suspension travel and more aggressive tracks. This new setup requires a lot more power to turn than the older 7/8-inch ribs with 8 inches of travel.

A lot of groomed trail and lake riders today don't care for all that travel, but prefer a lower set-up that hugs the corners rather than a tall snocross-inspired bump-runner that tips up on the outside ski when you go around a corner fast. Without all the long travel suspension technology, the older sleds were also lighter than many of the newer machines. With free-turning tracks and less weight, performance was better on lakes and groomed trails, and this influenced fuel mileage.

Earlier sleds also, had simple ignitions that made it possible to rev engines higher without the ignition timing and power dropping off. With the advent of TPS (throttle position sensors) and 3-D multiple maps, manufacturers took the opportunity to install a number of limiters in order to cut down on engine damage and warranty claims. This often means that if your stock engine is tuned with a power peak at 7800 rpm, the factory may retard the engine sharply at 8200 rpm. This dramatically drops power. If you are a little off on the clutching and revs are up, power is reduced.

With the introduction of knock sensors and fuel injection, the computer richens the fuel mix and retards the ignition at the slightest sign of engine knock. Unfortunately the sensors are calibrated way too sensitively on many new machines. This results in sleds seldom running at maximum, and some 800 twins may easily be off by as much as 10 hp.

With stringent emission requirements, and additional heat sensors, there are a number of new sleds that are actually calibrated too rich, because some warning systems retard ignition and richen up fuel supply before the engine ever gets up to the heat load it was designed to run at. This is something we probably will have to live with for a couple of seasons until the engineers get the fuel injection sorted out, and it may take another generation or two of both software and hardware before the new sleds run as good as an old machine with a single ignition curve and normal carbs you could calibrate yourself.

Cylinder efficiency
These are some of the reasons why you have less power today, but there's another fundamental reason why triples are more efficient, and that is cylinder efficiency, both in how the cylinder is filled with fuel charges and how that charge is burned. The basic engineering formula for cylinder efficiency goes like this:

Displacement means the total displaced volume of the engine in cc in one revolution of the crank. RPM is how many times the volume is displaced in one minute, and BMEP (Brake Mean Effective Pressure) is an expression for what the average pressure on the piston would be per stroke in psi.
Brake Mean Effective Pressure is figured backward from the torque measured on the engine brake (dyno), its cylinder size and rpm. It would be the equivalent of the constant pressure that would have to be exerted on the piston through its full stroke to produce the torque output measured on the dyno. BMEP actually becomes a measurement of how efficiently each cylinder is filled with fuel and how well it is burned.

How much charge you can get into a cylinder depends on the size of the cylinder and the time you have to fill it. Larger cylinders are harder to fill and even more so as the rpm is increased. The advantage in efficiency therefore goes to the smaller cylinders of a triple, and with the shorter stroke it can even be revved higher. Typical BMEP values can vary from 130 psi on an old piston port engine to 200 PSI on a full race 340 mod engine.
A typical number for a 140 hp 800 twin revving at 7800 rpm would be 143.5 psi. An 800 triple producing 160 hp at 8200 rpm would produce a BMEP value of 156 psi. The difference is in the cylinder size, the 800 twin has two cylinders at 400cc each, while the triple 800 has three 267cc cylinders. Since the triple has a shorter stroke, it also can be easily revved at 9000 rpm or higher without losing much in cylinder efficiency, which will increase its output to 175 hp. If you want to try this yourself on some of your engines, here is the formula for BMEP in psi.

Improvements in port design and combustion chamber shapes have improved on the cylinder efficiency on the new breed of 800s. With a claimed power of 150 at 8000 rpm the new 800 twin engines actually are very efficient with a BMEP of 150 psi.

There is a good reason why factories are discontinuing their 1000 twins and going back to 800 twins. The large 500cc cylinders were just too hard to fill efficiently at higher rpm and didn't produce the expected benefit. In addition, the larger strokes produced difficult to tame vibration and torque reactions that were hard on the chassis, drivetrain and riders. So what is the maximum power you can expect from an all-out racing engine?
The highest BMEP value we recorded on a race engine was 198 psi with a 340 Sno Pro full-mod Ski-Doo rotary valve engine producing 105 hp at 10,000 rpm. If you want to find out what a full-mod 600cc snocross twin is producing, here are some guidelines we picked up. Most snocross race engines are revving above 9000 rpm with twin pipes, some are claiming as high as 9400 rpm. With high compression heads, ported cylinders and twin pipes a realistic BMEP figure for the 300cc cylinders of a 600 twin race engine would be 175 BMEP. Throw this in the formula,


This is actually pretty close to the numbers we're hearing through our sources on the race teams. If you go to an ISOC snocross race, listen to the full-mod sleds as they fly by, they are definitely revving those engines to the nines.
So they are getting 154 hp out of the mod 600 engines, that's more than a stock 800 twin! With smaller cylinders running at higher rpm and with better efficiency, the power is now matching the 800 mods of just a few years ago.
If you want the most power and efficiency, smaller cylinders and higher rpm are your tickets. That's why a triple will outperform a twin in power and efficiency and give you a smoother running engine to top off the bargain.

Olav Aaen is a long-time contributor to AmSnow.
As a mechanical engineer and president of Aaen Performance, Olav has been heavily involved with snowmobile performance since 1968. Aaen Performance is best known for pioneering performance pipes and introducing the roller clutch to the snowmobile market.



POWDER BOUND
Quote: From American Snowmobiler
Polaris will return with the 800 XCR. The big triple triple mill is still the strongest 800 production engine we've ever put on the dyno. 159.2 HP
2003 XCR 800 TRIPLE TRIPLE, Clutched, Geared, 1.25" Rip Saw track, Holtzman ATAAC and VForce 3 Reeds
2002 XC 600
1998 THUNDER CAT 1000 Triple Triple Crazy HP, Case Ported, Cylinder work, Shaved head, bored carbs, clutched, D & D deflection adjuster, Holtzman vari flow, V-force 3 reeds, Can and studs
1997 ULTRA 680 TRIPLE, 2006 PRO X 120, 1981 EXCITER 440
1971 CHEVELLE

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April 2nd 2009 at 5:18 PM
 
stormrider62033
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thats a good read



mid Il alway's waiting for snow,moving north(way north)2001 thundercat 99xcr 800 97SPX ULTRA 96 zrt 600&800,92 doo plusX 92 v max 4 750

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April 2nd 2009 at 6:08 PM
 
wot800 Gold Ribbon
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I would say. One of the best things I've read in a while.



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April 2nd 2009 at 6:09 PM
 
70panther340
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Quote originally posted by stormrider62033

thats a good read


might be a good read... but, i dont have the time to read that long a$$ thing. lol



take off your windshield, it'll make you go faster

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April 2nd 2009 at 6:23 PM
 
powersledder
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It's nice that a well known and respected source finally came out with an article covering both ride and engines. In every triple versus twin argument there are always the same two opinions; triples are to heavy and older chassis don;t ride as nice as the new ones which makes the triple outdated. People need to realize there's a reason why people are trying to find ways to transplant triples into newer chassis.


Quote originally posted by 70panther340
Quote originally posted by stormrider62033

thats a good read


might be a good read... but, i dont have the time to read that long a$$ thing. lol


Then why even bother commenting?






Polaris 800HO monoblock cylinder for sale PM me with offers


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April 2nd 2009 at 8:07 PM
 
arcticcatmatt
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Very good read and very informative. I sometimes think about selling my 600 trip trip but then I start it or ride it and that thought is erased in a fraction of a second.




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April 2nd 2009 at 8:33 PM
 
Polaris650rxl Gold Ribbon
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Best thing i have read in a while! Thank you for that info!




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April 2nd 2009 at 9:06 PM
 
polarisfreak08
 
 
thats the same mag. i read when im dropping the kids off at the pool. lol




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April 2nd 2009 at 9:19 PM
 
OhioPolarisKid
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I was actually thinking about that article earlier. I re-read it a few times the day we got the magazine. Some of the new mags have some good tech write ups like this, and they are really interesting to read. Ive really learned a lot from reading them, and pick up something new every time i re-read them.



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April 2nd 2009 at 9:29 PM
 
Gee3
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My son and I were out riding the other day. Him on his 98 RMK 600 twin and me on my 93 RXL 650 triple.
We rode for a couple hours and then swapped sleds. I thought I'd ride his for an hour or so.
I didn't last 5 minutes and I swapped him back.
His xtra 10 soaks up the bumps better than my standard 8 but when it comes to power and drivability there is no question. The triple wins hands down. It is way smoother power and just an all around nicer sled to ride.
In a drag race, he takes the first 75 - 100' or so but then the trip starts to wind up and then its all over except the cying. lol.
And I know you've all heard it before, but there really is nothing like the sound of a triple. Whether its at an idle or pinned to the bars, flat out, pulling hard at 8400 RPM. Reminds me of a freakin' Ferrari.
I liked my triple so much that I bought another 650 engine just because. I have no idea what I'm going to do with it yet, but I'll find something to stuff it into.



Everybody needs a good wedgie.
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April 2nd 2009 at 9:48 PM
 
mmiller491
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Im saving this forum, any time there is a argument between which is better, twins or triples, imma pop this argument up and settle it! great read man, i really think they should bring the triples back!




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April 2nd 2009 at 11:05 PM
 
XLT96rider
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Quote originally posted by Gee3

My son and I were out riding the other day. Him on his 98 RMK 600 twin and me on my 93 RXL 650 triple.
We rode for a couple hours and then swapped sleds. I thought I'd ride his for an hour or so.
I didn't last 5 minutes and I swapped him back.
His xtra 10 soaks up the bumps better than my standard 8 but when it comes to power and drivability there is no question. The triple wins hands down. It is way smoother power and just an all around nicer sled to ride.
In a drag race, he takes the first 75 - 100' or so but then the trip starts to wind up and then its all over except the cying. lol.
And I know you've all heard it before, but there really is nothing like the sound of a triple. Whether its at an idle or pinned to the bars, flat out, pulling hard at 8400 RPM. Reminds me of a freakin' Ferrari.
I liked my triple so much that I bought another 650 engine just because. I have no idea what I'm going to do with it yet, but I'll find something to stuff it into.


It's nice to see someone on the triple side, instead of getting beaten down on all the time. "I can do the same thing with one less cylinder!" Whatever!!!! And I'll X2 what Gee3 said!!!




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April 3rd 2009 at 5:12 AM
 
THE_Norwegian
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very good article.

One thing is that triples makes good power. but the sound is amazing to. Thats wwhy im dreaming of putting a triple engine in my xcr :)



* XCR 440 *

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April 3rd 2009 at 8:47 AM
 
madcow
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olaav has been trying to get the factories to understand that a single pipe triple is easier to pass epa laws than a single pipe twin. let the factory build a single pipe triple 800 at 140 hp and electric motor torque!! then let the aftermarket go crazy building pipe kits and porting packages. no reason an 800 with big throttle bodies on efi shouldnt be able to run 180 hp on pump gas.
make it a 1000cc sled and come out stock 155 hp. noone will care, because a triple at 155 hp at 8300 rpm will run very well with all its torque. but the hp freaks will pull there hair out waiting for pipe and motor kits to make this thing 220 hp on pump gas.



nothing goes like 3 holes!!
Aaen Performance!!!!
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April 3rd 2009 at 9:17 AM
 
mmiller491
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Quote originally posted by madcow

olaav has been trying to get the factories to understand that a single pipe triple is easier to pass epa laws than a single pipe twin. let the factory build a single pipe triple 800 at 140 hp and electric motor torque!! then let the aftermarket go crazy building pipe kits and porting packages. no reason an 800 with big throttle bodies on efi shouldnt be able to run 180 hp on pump gas.
make it a 1000cc sled and come out stock 155 hp. noone will care, because a triple at 155 hp at 8300 rpm will run very well with all its torque. but the hp freaks will pull there hair out waiting for pipe and motor kits to make this thing 220 hp on pump gas.


triple in an SX chassis would be the greatest thing since sliced bread. id be a little worried about it tipping over though.




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April 3rd 2009 at 10:57 AM
 
MACHZRider
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I got rid of my 98 Mach Z for a twin 600 EFI Arctic Cat. The main reason was fuel mileage. My style of riding is trail riding. I went from about 5-6 to almost 13mpg. But.... I miss that snap of the throttle my Mach Z had. You really had to hold on. The arctic Cat twin though handles better on the trails and it is lighter. If I could have both I would but I had to stick with what was more important. The triple vs. twin debate could go on forever but I would take either one.

Nice Article.



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April 3rd 2009 at 11:07 AM
 
madcow
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i cant believe since 03 when polaris droppped fugi and went to imported parts to assemble there "liberty" engines aftermarket companys have been making a living selling kits to put triples into edge chassis or edge skids under the older chassis triple. and now they are stuffing them in the racing body, why polaris cant see that there are enough people demanding this that the aftermarket is catching on but the factory wont listen.



nothing goes like 3 holes!!
Aaen Performance!!!!
High performance engineering
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price performance

Got Speed Racing
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April 3rd 2009 at 12:00 PM
 
bushwacker
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I challenge the manufacturers to bring triple 2 strokes back! And why not, the market is ripe, how many of us drove RXL's, XLT's, XCR's, ZRT's, SRX's, SXR's, Ultra's, etc. that we loved. Many of us went to the twin cylinders, nice torque and lighter, but we also got increased clucth wear, less durable engines, less available engine rpm/HP and in some cases more vibration. I love my 700 twin Liberty but I would like even more a trick modernized light weight 800 triple.
How much more could it cost? a few hundred? That's only 3 percent on a $10,000. sled. I think Polaris and any manufacturer would be surprised by the sales of this new triple.




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April 3rd 2009 at 12:03 PM
 
mmiller491
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Quote originally posted by bushwacker

I challenge the manufacturers to bring triple 2 strokes back! And why not, the market is ripe, how many of us drove RXL's, XLT's, XCR's, ZRT's, SRX's, SXR's, Ultra's, etc. that we loved. Many of us went to the twin cylinders, nice torque and lighter, but we also got increased clucth wear, less durable engines, less available engine rpm/HP and in some cases more vibration. I love my 700 twin Liberty but I would like even more a trick modernized light weight 800 triple.
How much more could it cost? a few hundred? That's only 3 percent on a $10,000. sled. I think Polaris and any manufacturer would be surprised by the sales of this new triple.


like many have said before, they are a business, they are out to make money just like you and me. why put an extra cylinder in, which will increase production cost, when they could stick with 2 cylinders and keep the production cost at an all time minimum. next thing you know they'll be making a single cylinder 800 motor. .




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April 3rd 2009 at 12:17 PM
 
madcow
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they are a business sometimes following and leading the changing tides. we were getting low slung strong hp sleds that had great groomed trail manners and lake running ablity because through the 70's up to the early 90's speed runs, ice drags and long distance racing had huge factory sponsers, most big dealers out of the metro area where selling speed kits on there sleds or were sponsering speed runners. then sno cross came into play, now the industry dropped money from the speed run circut, drag circuts and is mostly focused on grass drags and big bumps. anyone with a brain gets off the trail when it gets rough, but there is a generation of people that enjoy beating the crap out of themselves and the machines in big bumps. the factories dropped the hp race and started a suspension race. again if you have a brain you know that quality of suspension is better than quantity. would you like to have 10" of amazing ride or 13 inches of just another rear skid? but you cant sell to the masses that your 10" is going to do better than brand x 13" 's so you have to come up with 14 inches.



nothing goes like 3 holes!!
Aaen Performance!!!!
High performance engineering
millennium technologies
brtech hoods
price performance

Got Speed Racing
320-629-4889

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April 3rd 2009 at 1:11 PM
 
promod
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Good article. Love my triples.



I like anything fast enough to do something stupid on

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April 3rd 2009 at 1:40 PM
 
ClassicCat76
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I got that article in am e-mail. Thanks for posting it because they wouldn't let me read the whole thing because I am not a subscriber.
I absolutely envy anyone that has a triple. I am so determined to get one for my next sled! Even though the occasional rough patch on the trail is fun, the flatout speed is what really like with the occasional drift added in.
Finally a technical truth rather than opinions.
To bad the OEM triple will probably never come back.



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MODS to come! Newer sled first!
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Do what you can with what you got.

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April 3rd 2009 at 4:16 PM
 
ultrastud
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When companies loke HTG figure out how to stuff a triple in these newer chassis maybe the light will come on for Polaris....an 800 XCR powered IQ, a Thundercat powered Fcat, or a REAL Mach Z powered Adrenaline.... droooooool



General in the Anti-Catsdouche06 army, saving the world from stupidity and inbreeding!

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