You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it - Something to chew on started by erick
	July 17th 2009 at 6:11 AM Post #26
	Sledman74 CANDU is the right choice for Ontarios Power needs 115 Posts Group: Members Member Since: November 17th 2008 Location: Kitchener, ON, Canada Current Sled: 2004 XC 800 2008-2009 Miles: 1100
	Irresponsible people who do milk the healthcare system should be dealt with in a different manner I agree. It definately is a complex question, one that constantly talked about here in Ontario and Im sure all over North America. As long as they don't tax sledding I will manage ok! Toys Own and Owned 1985 Indy Trail 440 - sold with 7500 miles 1987 Indy 600 - sold with 5800 miles 1997 XC 600 - sold with 6500 miles 2002 Edge X 700 - sold with 6000 miles 2004 XC 800 1995 Polaris SL 750 PWC 2000 Polaris Sportsman 500 ATV Rating: 0 Quick Edit Full Edit

	Site Supporter Group: Site Supporters

	July 20th 2009 at 12:18 PM Post #27
	picman Junior Member picman is off to bag his buck. I hope. Skunked so far. Updated Wednesday at 1:17 PM 308 Posts Group: Members Member Since: January 15th 2009 Location: Marinette, WI, USA Current Sled: 1998 Polaris Ultra 2008-2009 Miles: 1145
	Quote originally posted by Sledman74 Irresponsible people who do milk the healthcare system should be dealt with in a different manner I agree. It definately is a complex question, one that constantly talked about here in Ontario and Im sure all over North America. As long as they don't tax sledding I will manage ok! Just wait, someone will decide that sledding is a "luxury". Just like Mr Clinton did when he instituted a special tax on boats larger than a certain lenght. 16 ft I believe it was. Find the line between respect and fear....then flirt with it Rating: 0 Quick Edit Full Edit

	July 21st 2009 at 7:09 AM Post #28
	RMK-Queen Starting Member 48 Posts Group: Members Member Since: October 2nd 2008 Location: Fargo/Center, ND, USA Current Sled: Pro X 2008-2009 Miles: 20
	Quote originally posted by SnowMan110 Anyone who thinks that is a "good example" of why socialism is a _bad_ thing has a VERY narrow view of the world and no, I don't support socialism Why do you say that? How does it narrow our world view? I agree that it is a simplistic example but it doesn't make it a bad example. Rating: +3 Quick Edit Full Edit

	July 21st 2009 at 10:48 AM  [ Modified July 21st 2009 at 10:57 AM ] Post #29
	pigboy banned 3107 Posts Group: Members Member Since: December 23rd 2002 Location: hermantown, mn, USA Current Sled: 1997 XLTsp
	Quote originally posted by RMK-Queen Quote originally posted by SnowMan110 Anyone who thinks that is a "good example" of why socialism is a _bad_ thing has a VERY narrow view of the world and no, I don't support socialism Why do you say that? How does it narrow our world view? I agree that it is a simplistic example but it doesn't make it a bad example. Ultimatly, this will be a completely government-run healthcare system, a socialist system if you will. Obama promised that if you like the coverage you have, you can keep it, but he also wants to create a government-run health plan. Providers (hospitals) already get paid less by public systems. Providers make up the difference by passing the cost onto their other patients. Medicare for example, does not reimburse providers enough to even cover the costs of the procedure. So we have to bill private insurance that much more to make up the difference. Anyway, I digress... In a government-run plan, the government would set the prices, determine which treatments are covered, and control costs by offering a one-size-fits-all package. Because the government can the set the reimbursement prices to the providers, they will be able to offer a very low premium. It's estimated that 120 million Americans would shift from private coverage to the government plan right away, and put America on the path toward a completely government-run healthcare system. Private insurance would be reduced to offering supplementary coverages. In order to stay in business in the face of reduced reimbursements, providers will need lower to their costs. One way to do this is to improve the quailty of care. For example, providers need to reduce readmission rates. 20% of all Medicare patients are rehospitalized within 30 days of discharge. Hospitals need to become more efficent through better use of informational technology and so on. I reject your reality and substitute my own. Rating: 0 Quick Edit Full Edit

	July 21st 2009 at 11:28 AM Post #30
	tomjac Junior Member 444 Posts Group: Members Member Since: November 2nd 2003 Location: Coldwater, MI, USA
	Quote originally posted by pigboy It's estimated that 120 million Americans would shift from private coverage to the government plan right away, and put America on the path toward a completely government-run healthcare system. And in my opinion this would terminate employer healthcare benefits. Many blue collar employers will simply discontinue offering medical insurance as a benefit. This would further increase the number of Americans running to the government for heathcare. One of an employers largest labor costs is healthcare coverage, and this cost will always increase. Employers could simply offer employees a lower fixed payment rather than coverage. It's a no brainer, this would lessen the employers burden of an ever increasing premium and improve their bottom line. Expecting employers to do the "right thing" will nearly always result in disappointment. Bigger government is never the answer. What's next? Government auto insurance? Food stores? It's a race to the bottom. Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. Coldwater, MI Rating: +1 Quick Edit Full Edit

	July 21st 2009 at 12:31 PM Post #31
	picman Junior Member picman is off to bag his buck. I hope. Skunked so far. Updated Wednesday at 1:17 PM 308 Posts Group: Members Member Since: January 15th 2009 Location: Marinette, WI, USA Current Sled: 1998 Polaris Ultra 2008-2009 Miles: 1145
	Quote originally posted by tomjac Quote originally posted by pigboy It's estimated that 120 million Americans would shift from private coverage to the government plan right away, and put America on the path toward a completely government-run healthcare system. And in my opinion this would terminate employer healthcare benefits. Many blue collar employers will simply discontinue offering medical insurance as a benefit. This would further increase the number of Americans running to the government for heathcare. One of an employers largest labor costs is healthcare coverage, and this cost will always increase. Employers could simply offer employees a lower fixed payment rather than coverage. It's a no brainer, this would lessen the employers burden of an ever increasing premium and improve their bottom line. Expecting employers to do the "right thing" will nearly always result in disappointment. Bigger government is never the answer. What's next? Government auto insurance? Food stores? It's a race to the bottom. I agree that this could happen-at least in theory. I think there would be a return to the private sector as they would be forced to lower premiums to stay in business. NEVER underestimate greed!! As more people are covered by insurance, it would force the hospitals to get their pricing more in line with reality. No more charging $7 for an asprin or $379 for a half shot of pain reliever. Yup, that is what I paid!! 379 for 2 cc's of pain reliever. My insurer saw that and said HA HA Nice price-NOT COVERED!! And this is a hospital in a small community of about 20,000. Just imagine what Chicago, New York etc hospitals can charge! We need to get more people covered but government health care is not the solution. Find the line between respect and fear....then flirt with it Rating: 0 Quick Edit Full Edit

	July 21st 2009 at 3:54 PM  [ Modified July 21st 2009 at 4:01 PM ] Post #32
	pigboy banned 3107 Posts Group: Members Member Since: December 23rd 2002 Location: hermantown, mn, USA Current Sled: 1997 XLTsp
	Quote originally posted by picman As more people are covered by insurance, it would force the hospitals to get their pricing more in line with reality. No more charging $7 for an asprin or $379 for a half shot of pain reliever. Yup, that is what I paid!! 379 for 2 cc's of pain reliever. My insurer saw that and said HA HA Nice price-NOT COVERED!! And this is a hospital in a small community of about 20,000. Just imagine what Chicago, New York etc hospitals can charge! As I mentioned, the pricing is like it is because the public (government) programs don't even cover the providers costs with their reimbursement. When your hospital has 50% of it's business coming from Medicare and other government programs, the payment shortfall is made up by increasing the charges to the other payers. Provider reimbursement is a complex issue. You need to factor in such things as the MS-DRG (medical severity diagnois related grouping), wage index factors, and urban/rural adjustments, among a host of other things. In reality, nobody pays 100% of charges. It's a matter of what percentage of the charge the provider will get reimbursed at. A provider that has gross charges of one billion dollars a year (medium to medium-small hospital) may realize half that in actuall payer reimbursement. You may be suprised to find that your rural 20,000person community based hospital actually has higher charges then it's urban counterpart. Turns out Doctors would rather work in an large, research oriented, urban hospital then out in the middle of nowhere. As such, smaller and rural hospials typically have to pay a more for a particualr postion then their urban counterparts. This is not so true in specialty postions, but very true when it comes to family practice and general surgery. I reject your reality and substitute my own. Rating: 0 Quick Edit Full Edit

	July 22nd 2009 at 12:20 PM Post #33
	picman Junior Member picman is off to bag his buck. I hope. Skunked so far. Updated Wednesday at 1:17 PM 308 Posts Group: Members Member Since: January 15th 2009 Location: Marinette, WI, USA Current Sled: 1998 Polaris Ultra 2008-2009 Miles: 1145
	Quote originally posted by pigboy Quote originally posted by picman As more people are covered by insurance, it would force the hospitals to get their pricing more in line with reality. No more charging $7 for an asprin or $379 for a half shot of pain reliever. Yup, that is what I paid!! 379 for 2 cc's of pain reliever. My insurer saw that and said HA HA Nice price-NOT COVERED!! And this is a hospital in a small community of about 20,000. Just imagine what Chicago, New York etc hospitals can charge! As I mentioned, the pricing is like it is because the public (government) programs don't even cover the providers costs with their reimbursement. When your hospital has 50% of it's business coming from Medicare and other government programs, the payment shortfall is made up by increasing the charges to the other payers. Provider reimbursement is a complex issue. You need to factor in such things as the MS-DRG (medical severity diagnois related grouping), wage index factors, and urban/rural adjustments, among a host of other things. In reality, nobody pays 100% of charges. It's a matter of what percentage of the charge the provider will get reimbursed at. A provider that has gross charges of one billion dollars a year (medium to medium-small hospital) may realize half that in actuall payer reimbursement. You may be suprised to find that your rural 20,000person community based hospital actually has higher charges then it's urban counterpart. Turns out Doctors would rather work in an large, research oriented, urban hospital then out in the middle of nowhere. As such, smaller and rural hospials typically have to pay a more for a particualr postion then their urban counterparts. This is not so true in specialty postions, but very true when it comes to family practice and general surgery. Another reason prices are so high. Researchers want the latest and greatest equipment. And I do agree that it could well cost more to attract doctors to rural areas. But then again, some grew up in rural areas and regret going to urban areas. Find the line between respect and fear....then flirt with it Rating: 0 Quick Edit Full Edit

	July 23rd 2009 at 2:26 PM Post #34
	gopherguts Junior Member 433 Posts Group: Members Member Since: June 30th 2004 Location: Canada
	Quote originally posted by tomjac And in my opinion this would terminate employer healthcare benefits. What's next? Government auto insurance? Food stores? It's a race to the bottom. I partially agree with you here, but have to point out a few things. I live in Canada, and I'm in the military. The thing with "free" healthcare available to all Canadians is that it is a fairly basic system. It does not deal too much with quality of life issues, mostly just injuries and illnesses. It doesn't do chiropractor bills, dental bills, physio.... Employer healthcare, like what I get through the military, is much more comprehensive. If I need physio, they cover it, if I need an ankle brace, they cover it. Pretty much anything other than elective procedures (like plastic surgery or laser eye surgery) are covered under the military plan. Now, there are varying degrees of employer coverages, the military is probably the most complete, but even with public health care, there is still employer benefits. Government auto insurance. Well, I grew up in British Columbia with government auto insurance, and I now live in Ontario with it privatized. Having lived both, I have to say I prefer the government insurance regulation. At least between these two provinces, the government insurance is more consistent. If you are 50+ with a clean record you will get a better deal with private insurance, if you are 19 with a clean record, you will get a better rate from the government. I find that private insurance has been taken as a license to screw anyone with a moderate risk. I have 1 speeding ticket for 35 over and that was over 2 years ago. I had a 1998 Kawasaki Ninja 900 supersport bike. BC charged me 1400$ a year to insure it, fair rate, young guy, powerful bike, not too many years experience, I see where the rate comes from. Ontario, when I had one more years experience, and the bike was a year older and my ticket a year furthur back in history, I was uninsurable through most companies, and the few that I found were asking 10,000$ a year or more to insure me. Private insurance in my experience has an exponential curve for risk/premium while government run is a very linear progression. Just so I don't sound socialist [:P] I will include an example where over-regulation by the government is bad. In Ontario, liquor stores are all government owned and run. That means they have largely government hours. Can you imagine every liquor store in the province closed at 9pm friday nights, 5pm saturdays and closed sundays altogether? In BC liquor sales have been privatized, meaning that anyone who meets certain requirements can get a license, open a shop and do business whenever. Liquor stores are actually open at times when people are drinking, and in populated places you can call the liquor store or a specialized company and for a reasonable fee they will deliver the liquor to your home, in order to prevent drunk-driving. And there is todays lesson on Canadian government class... Kevin 350 85 Yamaha RZ 500 80 Ski-Doo Everest 1500 75 Triumph Spitfire 295 73 polaris colt/trike 640 72 Ski-Doo Nordic Rating: 0 Quick Edit Full Edit

	July 27th 2009 at 12:09 PM Post #35
	picman Junior Member picman is off to bag his buck. I hope. Skunked so far. Updated Wednesday at 1:17 PM 308 Posts Group: Members Member Since: January 15th 2009 Location: Marinette, WI, USA Current Sled: 1998 Polaris Ultra 2008-2009 Miles: 1145
	Quote originally posted by gopherguts Quote originally posted by tomjac And in my opinion this would terminate employer healthcare benefits. What's next? Government auto insurance? Food stores? It's a race to the bottom. I partially agree with you here, but have to point out a few things. I live in Canada, and I'm in the military. The thing with "free" healthcare available to all Canadians is that it is a fairly basic system. It does not deal too much with quality of life issues, mostly just injuries and illnesses. It doesn't do chiropractor bills, dental bills, physio.... Employer healthcare, like what I get through the military, is much more comprehensive. If I need physio, they cover it, if I need an ankle brace, they cover it. Pretty much anything other than elective procedures (like plastic surgery or laser eye surgery) are covered under the military plan. Now, there are varying degrees of employer coverages, the military is probably the most complete, but even with public health care, there is still employer benefits. Government auto insurance. Well, I grew up in British Columbia with government auto insurance, and I now live in Ontario with it privatized. Having lived both, I have to say I prefer the government insurance regulation. At least between these two provinces, the government insurance is more consistent. If you are 50+ with a clean record you will get a better deal with private insurance, if you are 19 with a clean record, you will get a better rate from the government. I find that private insurance has been taken as a license to screw anyone with a moderate risk. I have 1 speeding ticket for 35 over and that was over 2 years ago. I had a 1998 Kawasaki Ninja 900 supersport bike. BC charged me 1400$ a year to insure it, fair rate, young guy, powerful bike, not too many years experience, I see where the rate comes from. Ontario, when I had one more years experience, and the bike was a year older and my ticket a year furthur back in history, I was uninsurable through most companies, and the few that I found were asking 10,000$ a year or more to insure me. Private insurance in my experience has an exponential curve for risk/premium while government run is a very linear progression. Just so I don't sound socialist [:P] I will include an example where over-regulation by the government is bad. In Ontario, liquor stores are all government owned and run. That means they have largely government hours. Can you imagine every liquor store in the province closed at 9pm friday nights, 5pm saturdays and closed sundays altogether? In BC liquor sales have been privatized, meaning that anyone who meets certain requirements can get a license, open a shop and do business whenever. Liquor stores are actually open at times when people are drinking, and in populated places you can call the liquor store or a specialized company and for a reasonable fee they will deliver the liquor to your home, in order to prevent drunk-driving. And there is todays lesson on Canadian government class... Kevin Thanks for that info. I did not knowthat you could even get private insurance. And 10k to get insurance??? It would be cheaper to buy a new identity and start over! LOL Find the line between respect and fear....then flirt with it Rating: 0 Quick Edit Full Edit

	July 27th 2009 at 12:14 PM Post #36
	YamahaRider34 Let snowmobiling begin!!! 203 Posts Group: Members Member Since: July 24th 2009 Location: Wisconsin, USA Current Sled: 87 Yamaha Enticer 340 2008-2009 Miles: 570
	Your like a professor. Like the thought on it Rating: 0 Quick Edit Full Edit