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How Do These Pistons Look?
- Just tore open the head to see.
started by ClassicCat76
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September 8th 2009 at 5:07 PM
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ClassicCat76
Vintage Sledhead
ClassicCat76 Sled day!
Updated This afternoon at 2:35 PM
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1391 Posts 
Group: Members
Member Since: June 2nd 2008
Location: Jordan, Minnesota, USA
Current Sled: '76 Arctic Cat Pantera
2008-2009 Miles: 450
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Just tore open the head to check them out.
Are they good? Also too do I need to replace the gasket now?
Thanks
'76 Pantera 5000 F/C Conversion
MODS to come! Newer sled first!
Dad's Sled: '94 580 EXT dropped two teeth
Old doesn't necessarily mean slow!!
Do what you can with what you got.
Give a man a fish he eats for a day, teach a man to fish he eats for a lifetime.
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Site Supporter
Group: Site Supporters
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September 8th 2009 at 5:48 PM
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Racing666
Junior Member
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498 Posts 
Group: Members
Member Since: September 16th 2006
Current Sled: 99 Vmax SX 600 Triple
2008-2009 Miles: 0
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Pistons look pretty good to me. They got some nice wash on them. And yes, never reuse head gaskets or else your asking for a leak down the road.. or ahemmm "TRAIL" lol
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September 8th 2009 at 6:19 PM
[ Modified September 8th 2009 at 6:34 PM
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gedertr
Junior Member
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316 Posts
Group: Members
Member Since: December 3rd 2004
Location: Muskegon, MI, USA
Current Sled: 2006 Fusion 600HO
2008-2009 Miles: 842
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If you like to be on the safe side, I'd say they're a little rich based on the piston wash. I'd say you could lean it out a little and be fine and gain some power. http://www.bikemanperformance.com/tech_d...l.php?ta=4
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September 8th 2009 at 6:30 PM
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ClassicCat76
Vintage Sledhead
ClassicCat76 Sled day!
Updated This afternoon at 2:35 PM
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1391 Posts
Group: Members
Member Since: June 2nd 2008
Location: Jordan, Minnesota, USA
Current Sled: '76 Arctic Cat Pantera
2008-2009 Miles: 450
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I was thinking they were running rich. Do they make high compression gaskets for this? Just curious. How much are gaskets?
Thanks
'76 Pantera 5000 F/C Conversion
MODS to come! Newer sled first!
Dad's Sled: '94 580 EXT dropped two teeth
Old doesn't necessarily mean slow!!
Do what you can with what you got.
Give a man a fish he eats for a day, teach a man to fish he eats for a lifetime.
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September 8th 2009 at 6:40 PM
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shortstop20
I NEED SNOW!!!!
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3836 Posts 
Group: Members
Member Since: August 9th 2004
Location: Stickney, SD, USA
Current Sled: '09 Summit XP 800R 154" X
2008-2009 Miles: 400
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Too rich, lean her out.
2009 Ski-Doo Summit XP 800 154" X package - Quick Clickers, Between the Lines Designs Ice Scratchers, Tunnel & Rail Stiffeners
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September 8th 2009 at 6:50 PM
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RMK-KING
The Fabricator Moderator
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9123 Posts 
Group: Moderators
Member Since: October 3rd 2002
Location: Center and Roseglen, ND, USA
Current Sled: 09 RMK 700 & 06 IQr 600
2008-2009 Miles: 550
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I would get new gaskets,looks like they are $26 from browns leisure world.
It is indeed a little on the rich side.
Current Line Up
-09 RMK Assault
-06 IQ R 600HO
-01 ProX 600
-95 XCR 600
Days get shorter,snow gets deeper,life gets better.
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September 8th 2009 at 7:13 PM
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ClassicCat76
Vintage Sledhead
ClassicCat76 Sled day!
Updated This afternoon at 2:35 PM
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1391 Posts
Group: Members
Member Since: June 2nd 2008
Location: Jordan, Minnesota, USA
Current Sled: '76 Arctic Cat Pantera
2008-2009 Miles: 450
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I believe I have stock jetting in there, but we are currently experimenting with oil ratios. We run Arctic Blue oil. What do you think will be a safe ratio for this? In order to lean it out, would I need new jets, or can I just tune something? I also run BR8ES plugs, which is what the OPERATOR"S MANUAL says, yet the SREVICE MANUAL says a BR9ES plug, should I run the BR9's? Haha I know this is a mouthful but any help would be appreciated. Thanks alot guys.
'76 Pantera 5000 F/C Conversion
MODS to come! Newer sled first!
Dad's Sled: '94 580 EXT dropped two teeth
Old doesn't necessarily mean slow!!
Do what you can with what you got.
Give a man a fish he eats for a day, teach a man to fish he eats for a lifetime.
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September 8th 2009 at 7:33 PM
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i would leave the oil mix ratio alone. i don't know if you mean you are pre-mixing or talking about adjusting oil injection. but it's better to have a more lubricating fuel and be safe. if i remember, the BR8ES plugs run a little hotter, which is probably fine since it's not showing anything on your piston. and for leaning out, you would change main jets down in size.
---------------------------
- 2004 pro-xr 440/800: SLP single pipe, clutched, not enough studs, wacky oil tank mounting, crazy intake i made, REV seat/tank, C&A pro skis.
- 2006 mxzx 440 race sled
- 1989 indy trail
- 2001 800xcsp: rest in pieces.
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September 8th 2009 at 7:44 PM
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RMK-KING
The Fabricator Moderator
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9123 Posts
Group: Moderators
Member Since: October 3rd 2002
Location: Center and Roseglen, ND, USA
Current Sled: 09 RMK 700 & 06 IQr 600
2008-2009 Miles: 550
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I forgot to mention you should check you piston wash after a wide open run,not after its been idleing for awhile. I would drop the main jet in the carb 1 size to start with.
Current Line Up
-09 RMK Assault
-06 IQ R 600HO
-01 ProX 600
-95 XCR 600
Days get shorter,snow gets deeper,life gets better.
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September 8th 2009 at 7:49 PM
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ClassicCat76
Vintage Sledhead
ClassicCat76 Sled day!
Updated This afternoon at 2:35 PM
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1391 Posts
Group: Members
Member Since: June 2nd 2008
Location: Jordan, Minnesota, USA
Current Sled: '76 Arctic Cat Pantera
2008-2009 Miles: 450
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Ok. What exactly is piston wash?
As far as oil goes we're running 1 quart to 5.5 gallons.
'76 Pantera 5000 F/C Conversion
MODS to come! Newer sled first!
Dad's Sled: '94 580 EXT dropped two teeth
Old doesn't necessarily mean slow!!
Do what you can with what you got.
Give a man a fish he eats for a day, teach a man to fish he eats for a lifetime.
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September 8th 2009 at 8:41 PM
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RMK-KING
The Fabricator Moderator
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9123 Posts
Group: Moderators
Member Since: October 3rd 2002
Location: Center and Roseglen, ND, USA
Current Sled: 09 RMK 700 & 06 IQr 600
2008-2009 Miles: 550
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Quote originally posted by ClassicCat76
Ok. What exactly is piston wash?
Rich-Gas washes piston making it shiny
Lean-not enough gas and piston becomes carbon coated
You should have a pinky fingernail sized shiny portion showing on each of the intake ports.
Here is a great reference with pictures.
http://www.bikemanperformance.com/blog/?p=11
Current Line Up
-09 RMK Assault
-06 IQ R 600HO
-01 ProX 600
-95 XCR 600
Days get shorter,snow gets deeper,life gets better.
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September 8th 2009 at 8:51 PM
[ Modified September 8th 2009 at 8:52 PM
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ClassicCat76
Vintage Sledhead
ClassicCat76 Sled day!
Updated This afternoon at 2:35 PM
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1391 Posts
Group: Members
Member Since: June 2nd 2008
Location: Jordan, Minnesota, USA
Current Sled: '76 Arctic Cat Pantera
2008-2009 Miles: 450
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Thanks! Would you reccomend aftermarket gaskets or dealer sourced? Cause I might order from High Perf.
But what does 1 Qt to 5.5 gallons come out to as a ratio?
EDIT: Also, would this rich condition rob performance? And how can you tell without opening up the head again if your running too rich?
Thanks alot.
'76 Pantera 5000 F/C Conversion
MODS to come! Newer sled first!
Dad's Sled: '94 580 EXT dropped two teeth
Old doesn't necessarily mean slow!!
Do what you can with what you got.
Give a man a fish he eats for a day, teach a man to fish he eats for a lifetime.
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September 8th 2009 at 8:55 PM
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snowdriven
Do a wheelie
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685 Posts 
Group: Members
Member Since: April 13th 2008
Location: Southern G. Bay, Canada
Current Sled: 1999 MXZ 600
2008-2009 Miles: 2000
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first one looks like a happy face.
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September 8th 2009 at 9:00 PM
[ Modified September 8th 2009 at 9:02 PM
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RMK-KING
The Fabricator Moderator
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9123 Posts
Group: Moderators
Member Since: October 3rd 2002
Location: Center and Roseglen, ND, USA
Current Sled: 09 RMK 700 & 06 IQr 600
2008-2009 Miles: 550
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For that sled I wouldnt be to fussy about what head gaskets to order,they are all about the same.
Running rich will usually take away HP,the easiest way to tell how your sled is running is by looking at your plugs. Its not quite as accurate as looking at your piston wash but its what I do. EGT "exhaust gas tempature" guages is another route to monitor how your engine is running.
Plug reading
Black-oil fouled
Real dark brown-Rich
Chocolate/gold brown- Perfect
White-lean
Check your plugs after running it half throttle for 20seconds,then do it again after full throttle. Make adjustments from there.
Current Line Up
-09 RMK Assault
-06 IQ R 600HO
-01 ProX 600
-95 XCR 600
Days get shorter,snow gets deeper,life gets better.
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September 8th 2009 at 9:03 PM
[ Modified September 8th 2009 at 9:03 PM
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ClassicCat76
Vintage Sledhead
ClassicCat76 Sled day!
Updated This afternoon at 2:35 PM
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1391 Posts
Group: Members
Member Since: June 2nd 2008
Location: Jordan, Minnesota, USA
Current Sled: '76 Arctic Cat Pantera
2008-2009 Miles: 450
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Thanks! Now my Fuel/oil ratio should not affect how rich the engine is actually running correct? I don't want to put ****ty gaskets on though...
'76 Pantera 5000 F/C Conversion
MODS to come! Newer sled first!
Dad's Sled: '94 580 EXT dropped two teeth
Old doesn't necessarily mean slow!!
Do what you can with what you got.
Give a man a fish he eats for a day, teach a man to fish he eats for a lifetime.
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September 8th 2009 at 9:11 PM
[ Modified September 8th 2009 at 9:13 PM
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RMK-KING
The Fabricator Moderator
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9123 Posts
Group: Moderators
Member Since: October 3rd 2002
Location: Center and Roseglen, ND, USA
Current Sled: 09 RMK 700 & 06 IQr 600
2008-2009 Miles: 550
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Quote originally posted by ClassicCat76
Thanks! Now my Fuel/oil ratio should not affect how rich the engine is actually running correct?
The fuel/oil ratio does slightly effect how rich or lean you are running. But its not enough to really make a noticable difference. The biggest concern with your Fuel/Oil mixture is that you are getting enough oil for optimum lubercation without oil fouling your plugs.
Current Line Up
-09 RMK Assault
-06 IQ R 600HO
-01 ProX 600
-95 XCR 600
Days get shorter,snow gets deeper,life gets better.
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September 8th 2009 at 9:14 PM
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Luke
Snowmofile
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903 Posts
Group: Members
Member Since: November 27th 2005
Location: Rotterdam, NY, USA
Current Sled: 1998 XC 700
2008-2009 Miles: 410
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Quote originally posted by ClassicCat76
Thanks! Would you reccomend aftermarket gaskets or dealer sourced? Cause I might order from High Perf.
But what does 1 Qt to 5.5 gallons come out to as a ratio?
EDIT: Also, would this rich condition rob performance? And how can you tell without opening up the head again if your running too rich?
Thanks alot.
You probably have to go aftermarket with that, dealer would prob get the same aftermarket gaskets you would for a sled that old, and then mark the price up.
5.5 gal to 1 qt is 22:1 ratio. If you use half a quart of oil with 5.5 gallons you would still be on the safe side at 44:1. All sleds can be run safely at 50:1.
Running rich means there is too much gas and your cumbustion temps are lower than they could safely bee. A hotter burn will give you more power, but too hot will give you less piston, if you know what I mean.
Dont change the jetting until you run it again. Run it wide open throttle for a bit (say 30 sec plus or more) then shut it down at speed and check the plugs and study the hell out of them. Try to remember exactly what they look like, even take a pic if ou have too. This is what they look like with your current rich condition. Then do the same thing at 3/4 throttle and then again at 1/2 throttle. Compare the color of your plugs before and after any and all jetting changes. A good safe color to run is a dark card board brown. You could go a little lighter than this but you wont really gain anything powerwise and you could burn down if you ride in temps 20 def cooler than the temp you jetted in. Also, you should do your jetting changes when the outside temp is close to the temps you normally ride in.
Good luck
1998 XC 700
SLP pipe, boost bottle, power packs, VForce, clutched, Ripsaw 1.25, M-10 susp, 2 in riser, handlebar hooks, third testicle, and good brakes.
"I have not failed, I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work." - Thomas Alva Edison
Amsoil dealer
http://www.galushascottages.com
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September 8th 2009 at 9:15 PM
[ Modified September 8th 2009 at 9:19 PM
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ClassicCat76
Vintage Sledhead
ClassicCat76 Sled day!
Updated This afternoon at 2:35 PM
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1391 Posts
Group: Members
Member Since: June 2nd 2008
Location: Jordan, Minnesota, USA
Current Sled: '76 Arctic Cat Pantera
2008-2009 Miles: 450
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Quote originally posted by RMK-KING
Quote originally posted by ClassicCat76
Thanks! Now my Fuel/oil ratio should not affect how rich the engine is actually running correct?
The fuel/oil ratio does slightly effect how rich or lean you are running. But it wont be enough to really make a noticable difference. The biggest concern with your Fuel/Oil mixture is that you are getting enough oil for optimum lubercation without oil fouling your plugs.
Well 4 quarts in a gallon so were runing 1 to 5.5 so that would be about 1:25 not? A little rich? What would you suggest using this kind of oil? Thank You!
EDIT: Sorry Luke didn't see your post. So after every test, should I put in new plugs or just clean them to get more accurate results? I know what rich and lean means, and I know that it's running rich all the time cause I can tell that it runs way better when colder and also the pistons are a dead giveaway. Thanks.
'76 Pantera 5000 F/C Conversion
MODS to come! Newer sled first!
Dad's Sled: '94 580 EXT dropped two teeth
Old doesn't necessarily mean slow!!
Do what you can with what you got.
Give a man a fish he eats for a day, teach a man to fish he eats for a lifetime.
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September 8th 2009 at 9:32 PM
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Luke
Snowmofile
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903 Posts
Group: Members
Member Since: November 27th 2005
Location: Rotterdam, NY, USA
Current Sled: 1998 XC 700
2008-2009 Miles: 410
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Quote originally posted by ClassicCat76
Quote originally posted by RMK-KING
Quote originally posted by ClassicCat76
Thanks! Now my Fuel/oil ratio should not affect how rich the engine is actually running correct?
The fuel/oil ratio does slightly effect how rich or lean you are running. But it wont be enough to really make a noticable difference. The biggest concern with your Fuel/Oil mixture is that you are getting enough oil for optimum lubercation without oil fouling your plugs.
Well 4 quarts in a gallon so were runing 1 to 5.5 so that would be about 1:25 not? A little rich? What would you suggest using this kind of oil? Thank You!
EDIT: Sorry Luke didn't see your post. So after every test, should I put in new plugs or just clean them to get more accurate results? I know what rich and lean means, and I know that it's running rich all the time cause I can tell that it runs way better when colder and also the pistons are a dead giveaway. Thanks.
No prob, took me a while to type it up. I type pretty slow. 3 or 4 other posts came up after I started my reply, lol.
Just put the plugs right back in. They will re-color after a good throttle pull. Also, new plugs usually dont give that good of a read on a lean/rich condition, imo.
I figured you knew what rich and lean are, but Id rather give too much info than leave any confusion whatsoever.
Take your time while rejetting and write everything down in a notebook as you go and youll be giving advice on the same subject to other people by the end of winter. 
Good luck man.
1998 XC 700
SLP pipe, boost bottle, power packs, VForce, clutched, Ripsaw 1.25, M-10 susp, 2 in riser, handlebar hooks, third testicle, and good brakes.
"I have not failed, I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work." - Thomas Alva Edison
Amsoil dealer
http://www.galushascottages.com
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September 8th 2009 at 9:48 PM
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ClassicCat76
Vintage Sledhead
ClassicCat76 Sled day!
Updated This afternoon at 2:35 PM
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1391 Posts
Group: Members
Member Since: June 2nd 2008
Location: Jordan, Minnesota, USA
Current Sled: '76 Arctic Cat Pantera
2008-2009 Miles: 450
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Thanks alot everyone! I'll have more questions I guarantee it haha! I guess it'd be best to wait till winter like temps to jet though so I'll have to wait a bit.
Off Topic but I have another question for anyone, is it bad to clean the inside of a clutch? I was just thinking of using some degreaser.
'76 Pantera 5000 F/C Conversion
MODS to come! Newer sled first!
Dad's Sled: '94 580 EXT dropped two teeth
Old doesn't necessarily mean slow!!
Do what you can with what you got.
Give a man a fish he eats for a day, teach a man to fish he eats for a lifetime.
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September 8th 2009 at 10:05 PM
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Luke
Snowmofile
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903 Posts
Group: Members
Member Since: November 27th 2005
Location: Rotterdam, NY, USA
Current Sled: 1998 XC 700
2008-2009 Miles: 410
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Quote originally posted by ClassicCat76
Thanks alot everyone! I'll have more questions I guarantee it haha! I guess it'd be best to wait till winter like temps to jet though so I'll have to wait a bit.
Off Topic but I have another question for anyone, is it bad to clean the inside of a clutch? I was just thinking of using some degreaser.
I use a good quality brake cleaner and compressed air, then scrub the belt contacting surfaces of the clutch with hot soap and water. Most degreasers and solvents will leave a petroleum residue on the aluminum that will soak into the metal and cause your belt to slip and possibly ruin your belt.
1998 XC 700
SLP pipe, boost bottle, power packs, VForce, clutched, Ripsaw 1.25, M-10 susp, 2 in riser, handlebar hooks, third testicle, and good brakes.
"I have not failed, I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work." - Thomas Alva Edison
Amsoil dealer
http://www.galushascottages.com
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September 8th 2009 at 10:36 PM
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TriumphoverU
The Sled Guru - Moderator
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2192 Posts
Group: Moderators
Member Since: June 19th 2001
Location: Saint Johns, MI, USA
Current Sled: 2006 Polaris Fusion 700
2008-2009 Miles: 600
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My Opinion on this...do NOT lean out your jetting. Being a fan or free air cooled engine, running a little rich will help keep combustion temps down and aid in keeping the motor cool. If you were running a liquid cooled engine I'd agree with everyone else, but since you're not, I would leave the jetting alone.
Another reason to leave the jetting alone is that you have to remember that a little rich at 20 degrees F will be just about perfect on a 0 degree day. And unless you know what temp the engine was run at to get that piston wash, leave the jetting alone! Sorry for sounding like a broken record, but jetting might get you 2-3 hp, and definatly not worth the trouble for chancing a lean burn down.
Polaris is my way out - Other people just use a door.
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September 9th 2009 at 5:52 AM
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xc1000
Junior Member
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125 Posts
Group: Members
Member Since: December 17th 2006
Location: ny
Current Sled: 2001 XCR 800
2008-2009 Miles: 810
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Quote originally posted by TriumphoverU
My Opinion on this...do NOT lean out your jetting. Being a fan or free air cooled engine, running a little rich will help keep combustion temps down and aid in keeping the motor cool. If you were running a liquid cooled engine I'd agree with everyone else, but since you're not, I would leave the jetting alone.
Another reason to leave the jetting alone is that you have to remember that a little rich at 20 degrees F will be just about perfect on a 0 degree day. And unless you know what temp the engine was run at to get that piston wash, leave the jetting alone! Sorry for sounding like a broken record, but jetting might get you 2-3 hp, and definatly not worth the trouble for chancing a lean burn down.
You got it!!!!! Leave it alone, its been running fine all these years. No sense in messing with it.
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September 9th 2009 at 1:42 PM
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Offshore24
Dismember
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4604 Posts
Group: Moderators
Member Since: November 30th 2002
Location: NOYDB, Confusion, Azerbaijan
Current Sled: 05' Gade
2008-2009 Miles: 2999
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Don't use brake cleaner on clutches. They are aluminum and they ar porous. You will dissolve contaminants into the pore of the aluminum. Hot soapy water then scrotchbrite pad.
I'm suprised nobody mentioned checking the cylinder walls for wear or micing the pistons for wear. "How do my pistons look?" I guess the real question that's been asked and answered was 'How does my jetting look based on the carbon on top of my pistons?" Did you check compression before you popped the top?
2005 Ski-Doo MXZ Renegade 600 SDI
Save your breath, you'll need it to blow up your date.
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September 9th 2009 at 4:01 PM
[ Modified September 9th 2009 at 4:02 PM
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ClassicCat76
Vintage Sledhead
ClassicCat76 Sled day!
Updated This afternoon at 2:35 PM
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1391 Posts
Group: Members
Member Since: June 2nd 2008
Location: Jordan, Minnesota, USA
Current Sled: '76 Arctic Cat Pantera
2008-2009 Miles: 450
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I don't have a compression tester. What would you recommend?
'76 Pantera 5000 F/C Conversion
MODS to come! Newer sled first!
Dad's Sled: '94 580 EXT dropped two teeth
Old doesn't necessarily mean slow!!
Do what you can with what you got.
Give a man a fish he eats for a day, teach a man to fish he eats for a lifetime.
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