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Discussion Starter #1
I've been on here for a few years now and after reading, I got thinking about this topic. In (almost) every post that mentions an Indy 400,440,488,650, Ultra's, there are very few negative responses about these motors. Bullet Proof is the most used term. Many people run them 10k + miles.

Of course there are a few motors from the Fugi era that didn't go over as well in the long run, XCR's, XCR SP and XLT's (600's) were more prone to problems than the others mentioned but proved to be a great seller and there are plenty of them out there still. Weight and cost proved to be their demise from what I've read.

Will we be seeing the Liberty series of motors in this context in the next 15-20 years? Is it too early to tell? Will we be saying the 500,600 VES etc. was one of the best motors ever for example?

Just curious what you all think.

Dman

Have a merry Christmas.
 

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I beleive the 700/600 will last 10-20 years. The 700 will require that people change the oil/water belt to keep them going.

The only issue with the libertys is they are pulling more hp and have tight tolerances than the fuji. Which will lead the earlier engine issues.

There wern't the engine mods then as their are today. I beleive people took better care of their machines then than they do today.

Alot of people don't know what a dollar is anymore.......
 

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Originally posted by xcr440
[br]I beleive the 700/600 will last 10-20 years. The 700 will require that people change the oil/water belt to keep them going.

The only issue with the libertys is they are pulling more hp and have tight tolerances than the fuji. Which will lead the earlier engine issues.

There wern't the engine mods then as their are today. I beleive people took better care of their machines then than they do today.

Alot of people don't know what a dollar is anymore.......
No mods? I'm going to have to disagree, as the 400 was commonly bored to a 440. The 500's could run higher compression, and twin pipes, the 650's had two BB kits, a 707, and a 732. Could run very high compression, and triple pipes. You could get a 650 making a 140 for not a lot of money, that's for sure. The 650's/500's ultimately, required people to be knowledgeable when adding these mods otherwise an otherwise reliable motor turned to crap in a hurry. The 700's have pipes, and cheater heads and what not, but really the same type of mods as the older fuji's. Not much has changed as far as mods, just different methods of doing the same things.
 

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Yes there were mods but not everyone was doing them like they are today.

How many 600/700 have stock ppes on them? I would say less than 40% are stock.
 

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I cant believe he said he xcrs are prone to problems. they had one year of the case reed motor that in the sled ran like a turd. the engine itself was bullet proof. same with the xcr ves motor. that is the most looked for motor out there. in 5 years there will be more triple fusions than 900 twin fusions.
 

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The decline of Poo started when they went with the liberty, the price of Poo's didn't go down (they still went up) with the introduction of the liberty, Poo's bottom line just went up!! Weight is another MYTH, some of today's twins weigh MORE than the triple of yesterday...
 

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Without breaking into a fistfight over twins vs triples....
I would say in 15 years snowmobile engines will be 100% 4-stroke. And in terms of comparing them, I don't think you could. Apples and oranges.
The era 90's triples is sadly over. They were great engines. The Twins of today are butt-kickers, but they too will be surpassed by the next era of technology.

I hate to bring up cars..but I loved my old 77' 400 Big Block T/A...but also loved my 87' 350LS1 Formula....and if I get my 350Z.. I will love that too. All great engines in their time...but always something more refined to come.
 

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Originally posted by madcow
[br]I cant believe he said he xcrs are prone to problems. they had one year of the case reed motor that in the sled ran like a turd. the engine itself was bullet proof. same with the xcr ves motor. that is the most looked for motor out there. in 5 years there will be more triple fusions than 900 twin fusions.
I think he means the mono block 600. That motor was a turd no doubt and those 650' s could be problematic if not taken care of the right way. All of my buddy's, as well as I, have had nightmares with both. I like my 440 twin :) Just my 2 cents...
 

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only thing i really dont like about the 700's is the vibration =terrible,my buddy and me took turns between my 99 xcr 800 and his xc 700 so are arms wouldn't go totally asleep riding the 700 ,great beside that
 

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Must have underlieing issues with the 700. Mune vibrates alittle but not that bad. It has alittle bar shake at idle but past 6000 rpm it seems to smooth out.

I also had a xcr mono block in noway was it a turd. Nice quick machine. I never had a problem with my 3 650's that I owned either. Must be operator error...
 

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well i guess you must have lucked out then, i on the other hand was not. and all my buddies weren't and all the local shops agreed that they were both crap motors. i have talked to many local motor rebuilders and they all agree that both of them were to of the worst motors ever built by poo. i only wish i had known that b4 i went through two of them. like i said ^^^i love my 440 now thats a great little motor indeed.
 

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Originally posted by RED_XCR_440
[br]well i guess you must have lucked out then, i on the other hand was not. and all my buddies weren't and all the local shops agreed that they were both crap motors. i have talked to many local motor rebuilders and they all agree that both of them were to of the worst motors ever built by poo. i only wish i had known that b4 i went through two of them. like i said ^^^i love my 440 now thats a great little motor indeed.
Was your 650 carb or EFI? if it was EFI they tended to have problems, but the carbs seemed to be a pretty dang good motor.
 

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The Libertys are good motors as long as you stick to the 440, 500 and 600. The 700 and 800 twins had crank issues (although much more common in the 800) and the Cleanfire 750 and 850 has issues with vibration (broken motor mounts, blown belts, ect..).
Ive got over 6,000 miles on my '01 600 XC. I clean the valves once a year and change plugs as needed and other than that its pretty low-maintenance.
IMO, the Liberty engines are better than the Fujis. They make more power, get as good or better gas milage and are just as durable/reliable. You could say that variable exhaust did a lot for the newer engines, and it did, but look at a '97 600 XC vs a '98 600 XC. The '98 has the domestic twin (at that time it wasnt called a "Liberty") and it totally blows away the old Fuji 600 triple. I dont think you will ever see triples come back and be common ever again. For one, its cheaper to make a twin than it is to make a triple and for 2 you have the perception that triples are heavier.
Im sure in 10-20 years we will have 4-strokes that are just as good as any 2-stroke. Look at what Polaris, Yamaha and Cat have done in recent years with 4-strokes. The biggest obstacle is going to be weight. I honestly dont see how you will ever get a 4-stroke that puts out 120 hp and is under 500 pounds in a chassis that holds up for at least 10 years. I think its going to be really tough to come up with a 4-stroke that is a better all-around sled than a 600 2-strokes.
I think constant evolution is to be expected though. If the manufacturers arent at the very least refining their designs every year and making their sleds better, they arent doing their jobs. The good thing is that this pushes the manufacturers to one-up each other year after year and we, the consumers, are the ones who benefit.
 

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Originally posted by Octane
[br]....I think constant evolution is to be expected though. If the manufacturers arent at the very least refining their designs every year and making their sleds better, they arent doing their jobs. The good thing is that this pushes the manufacturers to one-up each other year after year and we, the consumers, are the ones who benefit.....
As long as the prices don't go through the roof, I hope to see great things in the near future.
I would hate to see declining sales and poor winters slow down the evolution of the snowmobile.
 

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Originally posted by RED_XCR_440
[br]well i guess you must have lucked out then, i on the other hand was not. and all my buddies weren't and all the local shops agreed that they were both crap motors. i have talked to many local motor rebuilders and they all agree that both of them were to of the worst motors ever built by poo. i only wish i had known that b4 i went through two of them. like i said ^^^i love my 440 now thats a great little motor indeed.
Did they give you any explanation or is this just some guy behind the counter saying, those were crap. I have found that many people have a love hate relationship with the Fuji motors. I myself love them for their simplistic design and ability to mod and change. Both my brother's 650 and my 650 had had zero problems related to the actual motor. Although when I got my sled I know it was probably on it's third rebuild. But I'm confident in my abilities, and in these motors when they are tuned and maintained properly.
 

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Liberty's rock man.... I always ran Fugi's with minimal problems but I think the Liberty is a far superior engine in most respects... but on the other hand... if the Fugi's would have ran with the same technology as the Liberty I'm sure they could make the same stock per stock HP.
 

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I think they did more homework on the liberty engines. I think it was the VES that tipped the scale to the liberty and the twin(over the triple). I seriously would camp out at my dealer if they brought back the XCR 800 engine in the IQ chassis. But seriously they need a new big gun. This is my last year with a POO otherwise My 02 xc8 was 138 HP and the new dragon the new world beating wonder is at 140
Team Yellow 170 HP
Team Blue 150 HP
team Red 140 HP
[xx(][xx(][xx(][xx(]
 

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^Stick around. Rumor has it Polaris is bringing a new big gun to the market that should be putting out at least 160 hp. I dont have any details other than that about it, but lets just say that I believe anyone who thinks that Polaris is just going to roll over and die are sadly mistaken. I think they have had just about enough of taking a backseat to Doo and Cat and are looking to regain the market dominance they enjoyed in the 80's and '90s.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Hey, I kinda forgot I posted this topic earlier today. I'm not trying to start any bashing or anything, I just wanted to compare newer motors to the old Fugi's. I do like to see a nice healthy debate without any problems.
Maybe I shouldn't have mentioned the XCR SP 600 case reed. That may be out of my realm of expertise since I've never had one but the tuning issues seem to come up frequently.
By no means am I an expert on any of these but I've rebuilt a few in the last few years.
Have a Merry Christmas eve.
Dman
 

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I gotta ask why do some people refer to Polaris as "POO"?? Anyways, heres some food for thought.....All of you precious Liberty Lovers that swear they were the best thing since sliced bread probably have no idea, but the company that makes the castings for many of the Liberty engine components is the same company that makes the castings for Rotax. Yes its true. Not that its a bad thing, in some cases[:D]
Fuji built some kickass engines for their time, also had a few lemons along the way...Liberty engines have proven themselves also just as good, but again, with a few lemons along the way.
 
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