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As mentioned in my other thread, I'm doing a top end rebuild on my 96 680 Ultra. I've read many threads in these forums relating to the subject but I still have a few questions. I've already ordered a Wiseco piston kit with gaskets for the engine and refurbished cylinders from Wiseco.

I've dug a bit deeper into these forums and found that some people consider Wiseco kits to be poor quality and worse than OEM, also to ensure that the clearances are correct. I was under the impression that Wiseco is a top name in pistons, is this incorrect?

I also asked the Wiseco rep about their forged pistons vs cast pistons and let him know I will be using their piston kit. He said that there will be no issues with clearance.

I've read a thread on these forums about cylinder base gaskets in the 680 ultra, a few people have blown out the paper gaskets shortly after rebuild. I asked the Wiseco rep which gaskets were in the kit and when he pulled a kit off the shelf manufactured late 2006, he said they were just paper. When I pulled the cylinders off the machine I could see a very small amount of white silicone between the gasket and cylinder. I'm almost positive that these are the cylinders from factory, but both the Polaris rep and Wiseco rep were suprised to hear about this silicone. Any advice for proper and reliable installation of these paper gaskets?

I've ordered a shop manual from Polaris but it will more than likely arrive after all the parts do. I've also asked my local Polarish dealership to fax me the relevant pages from the shop manual regarding top end rebuild, he said he'll see what he can do. I did order the shop manual through the shop, so hopefully they are more willing to help out knowing that I have purchased the manual. If by chance I don't get any of this information in time does anyone have the torque specs and head bolt order for this engine?

Lastly, any advice or tips from you guys that have put these engines back together? Things to avoid or ensure that I do correctly? I've never done an engine rebuild, but have a very experienced automotive mechanic that will be doing any of the technical work and looking over my shoulder alot of the time.

Thanks again for all the help and guidance up to this point,
JStrudwick
 

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I hope this helps I used spi moly coated pistons in mine and so far I love them.As far as the gaskets were concercerned they were winderosa.They were a paper gasket had no probs so far annd have a 150 miles or so on them.Just make sure everthing in straight and very clean.Use 3 Bond 1215 case sealant for the two halves but use it sparringly it goes a long way.Gook luck[:D]Sorry about some of the fuzzy pics must be the lighting but I think u can still make most of ot out
 

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I use Wiseco's every time ,the pro lites like any motor just make sure you start it and let it warm up for a few minutes,then take it easy for the first couple of miles instead of wide open
 

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many people had problems with wisecos. specifically in the ultras. seen one myselfs. the wristpin clips broke or came lose wiping out the top end. now his was a few years ago and wiseco ad known about the problem. im sure they worked it out by now. as far as paper gaskets, i dont see any problem with them. make sure to clean off all the old gasket real good on both mating surfaces. and make sure the gasket is in the proper way, rightside up. not sure if it makes a differece on the ultra but i do know some sleds could go in upside down but close of a water passage. there should be no silicone used between the cylinder and case.
wiseco is a top name in pistons, but proballly are worse then oem. whose gonna know an engine better then the manufaturer. but they are a reliable piston. wiseco mass produces pistons for every type of engine out there. so R$D on their pistons probally aint like that of a manufacture of the sled.
 

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Wiseco makes a great product I would not hesitate to put a wiseco kit in your motor. As for the silcone gaskets you found. Yes that is the original gasket from the factory. Polaris gaskets are very good quality gaskets which have a small bead of white silcone on them which is hard when you install them, the heat from the motor at first start up melts this silcone and creates a good seal for the base. They are a good product but you pay for them...$30 ea! I just put $90 worth of base gaskets in my XCR...that hurt. If I could of got any other kind I wouldn't have paid for polaris. A gasket is a gasket. You can put 10,000 miles on a motor with a aftermarket gasket in it. It comes down to, "how much money you have"
 

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The Wiseco piston is a forged piston versus the cast of the OEM. They have different expansion characteristics and need more clearance (0.005" minimum someone correct me if wrong), than the OEM minimum of 0.002". They are also sensitive to oil starvation, keep your oil adjusted properly.
Since you stated you are using refurbished jugs from Wiseco, they should have re-nicked them taking into account the need for more clearance. You should still measure everything to make sure though, don't take some sales rep's word on it.

Two years ago I rebuilt the top end of my Ultra SPX SE. I bought the Wiseco kit before realizing they needed so much clearance. Since the walls of my jugs were still good, I just honed them and put in all-new OEM parts. The fellow who bought the machine, with zero miles on the rebuild, is still driving it after nearly 5,000 miles.

Do not worry about the gaskets. They'll be fine. Use the 3-Bond as previously stated, you can buy it from www.hiperf.com and it is not spendy. I would also take the time to rebuild the water pump while you are doing this. All the bearings, seals and gaskets will total $80 USD, so it should not be that much more $CD and you'll have peace-of-mind while out on the trail.
 

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Originally posted by TheKuskokid
[br]The Wiseco piston is a forged piston versus the cast of the OEM. They have different expansion characteristics and need more clearance (0.005" minimum someone correct me if wrong), than the OEM minimum of 0.002".
no, just warm the engine up correctly and you will be just fine.
 

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Man Oh Man, I can't believe the river of BS that runs around on this site sometimes.

To Answer your original question. Wiseco Pistons are The Number one Piston in the Powersports industry.

Yes they are Forged, Yes factory are cast. and heres where the real BS starts Forged Aluminum is Stronger than Cast. Cast is brittle, Cast breaks. Heres the trick say after 2000 miles both a cast factory and the forged wiseco have slap, lets say for arguements sake the cast started at .002 clearance and has now expanded to .012 and the wiseco started at .005 and is now .015
even though the factory piston has less slap it is almost guaranteed to crack/ break and destroy your bottom end. the reason is how its made. remember i said forged is stronger than cast?? well when you forge aluminum what you are doing is aligning the grain or actually the particles of aluminum. this makes it very strong especially in one direction. the cast aluminum has its particles at random and so has naturally occuring fault lines. the same reasons are why a forged piston won't crack from detonation the way a cast piston will.

I don't know why all the hatred for wiseco's started on this site. or for forged pistons in general. but go ask anybody who races, anybody. and they will tell you which is better forged or cast.

as far as putting it back together. 3bond 1104 is factory sealant for that application.
 

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dont know who HATES wisecos pistons. every manufacturer has flaws. and as far as every racer using wisecos, i dont know aout that. alot are running spi pistons. they are coated from the get go. but everyone has an opinion. yes alot of racers use wiseco. i have them in my IS 800. with no troubles, so far. alot of different sleds had different problems. so do manufactures with there pistons.
im not here to dispute the fact that wiseco is a great piston. but just like everything for some models theres better alternatives. also isnt the skirts on the forged wisecos alot thinner then oem? this is one way pistons are lighter. this resulting in skirt failure on alot of wisecos. if a sled has oems i dont worry as much as i do with aftermarket
 

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Originally posted by bulldog_shotgun
[br]Man Oh Man, I can't believe the river of BS that runs around on this site sometimes.

I don't know why all the hatred for wiseco's started on this site. or for forged pistons in general. but go ask anybody who races, anybody. and they will tell you which is better forged or cast.
[LOL] The hatred comes from guys putting in wisecos and the second that sled starts they're hauling ass down the trail....and 100 yards later the engine seizes. WELL NO SH!T DUMBASS....you gotta warm them up properly!!! It's not like a cast piston where you can kinda get away with that.

Never had a forged piston failure....had a few cast ones fail. The best one was my yz (3 hours on it, maybe) and that thing shattered, taking out the lower end. It wasnt pretty.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Thanks for all the info everyone, and thanks for taking the time to make photos of those pages. I'll be sure to the let the machine warm up, which I've always done anyhow.

I'm still a little confused on the silicone. From the manual and some of the replies, I need to use the silicone only if I've split open the case, which I haven't. I don't need to use silicone on the cylinder base gaskets if they are paper even though Polaris gaskets have silicone on them?

There doesn't seem to be any mention in the installation instructions for cylinder base or head bolt torque or tightening order. Shouldn't there be some specs for this? That's from this photo - http://www.snowmobilefanatics.com/forum/attachment.asp?id=55311 - which seems to be the only installation page.
 

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Bulldog Shotgun,

There is no hatred implied in my post, nor is there any bull**** as you state. What I said is true. Wiseco pistons need more clearance, it is marked on the exterior of the box. The minimum clearance for cast OEM pistons in the 1996 Ultra is 0.002" according to my service manual.

In my Wiseco kit was a note stating I should drill a couple of small holes (the drill size was noted), perpendicular to the axis of the wrist pin for lubrication in the exhaust area. A very clear diagram was included to show where the holes needed to be.

I called the Wiseco rep and asked about the reason for more clearance, the reply I was given was due to the different expansion characteristics of cast aluminum and forged aluminum.

Every forum member that I have read a post on, who uses Wiseco, mirrors Sno-X-Treme, proper warm up is necessary. These posts were on here, HCS and Snowest.

I emailed 3-Bond's company representative in Los Angeles to ask which product should I use in my rebuild, as the service manual stated 1215/1205 (I forget for sure), and it appears to no longer be available. The rep told me to use 1211. I did. It works fine.

My suggestion would be to more carefully read what someone has written before giving in to a knee-jerk response.
 

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^^ i wasn't refering to your post. you aren't one of the people on this site who slam wiseco's.

you are absolutely correct that a forged piston expands differently than cast. it goes back to the fact that the particles are aligned.

3bond 1211 and 1104 are almost identical products. i believe the difference is there base material. they are both non hardening rubber sealants.
the 1211 is silicone based and ll04 is a different rubber polymer.
if the 3bond rep told you 1211 then by all means use it.

the reason my post was so aggresive, this is not the first time this has been brought up on this site. and i wanted to make sure that jstrudwick didn't think he had made a mistake buying these pistons. it wasn't an attack on you or anyone else who had posted on this thread.

I have personally installed hundreds of pistons in powersport products. the vast majority of these were wiseco's. i have never had a single one fail becuase of a manufacturing defect. I have nothing against any other brand. but why use cast when forged is stronger.
 
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