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Discussion Starter #1
Due to the off-season the forum slows down a little, so I cruise around other ones on occation. I saw this guys post in Maximumsled's forum and found it interesting. I know we've had these discussions before, and I don't want to start any arguments........buuuuut, since its slow right now.....what do you all think about this:


"I gave this shot before, and by some of the comments it seems it still didn't register, so I thought I'd try again. You hear alot these days about how the new twins make so much torque and accelerate so hard. Guys are buying into this propaganda and make buying decisions based on the hear say and hype floating around. The comparison.
The 700 Viper vs the 700MXZ, a twin and a triple with very similar hp ratings.

MXZ = 119.3hp and 80.3 ft/lbs @ 7800 rpm ( making over 80ft/lbs from 7100-7800rpm)
Viper= 119.8hp and 75.8 ft/lbs @ 8300 rpm ( making over 75 ft/lbs from 6800-8300 rpm!)

I'm going to use AC chassis numbers for gear ratios and speed calculations just because I know them off hand..and because it's the motors we are comparing..so the chassis, other than providing the calculation numbers is irrelevant. I'm also going to calculate the numbers with a 1 to 1 ratio on the clutches to make things simple. I'm not evaluating clutch ratios and who has the best set up...just motor torque. Chassis losses are not included.
So..throw the 700 twin in a ZR chassis with 24/39 gears and you get 130 ft/lbs of torque "at the drive axle" ( this is where torque numbers directly correlate to acceleration) and a 1.12 overdrive top speed calculation of 115.1 mph. The 700 triple motor running 500 rpm higher gives a top speed number of 122 mph. To achieve similar top end calculations the triple must be geared down to 20/35. The geared down triple has drive shaft torque of 132.8 ft/lbs ( WHAT? MORE THAN THE TWIN?) and a 1.12 overdrive top speed of 114 mph. Not only that...at 6200 rpm ( slow trail cruising speed) the twin has 115 ft/lbs of drive axle torque and the triple has 119! MORE AGAIN. The triple also makes this torque over a much broader power band 6800-8300 vs 7100-7800. To add insult to injury..let the triple breath..3x3..the 700 Mach 1 motor makes 139.7 hp and 86.3 ft/lbs @ 8500 rpm. Gear it down to 20/35 for similar top end and you get a whopping 151 ft/lbs on the drive axle and with a calculated top speed of 116 mph. So..what does your big twin torque mean in the real world?..It means you bought vibrating piece of junk..to save a couple of lbs at the most...but other than that?...NOTHING"(1).

(1) - Post from Maximumsled forum.





1997 XLT SP 600
"Engage the Mechanism"
 

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regardless of your calculations, most people buy what feels good to them, not what looks good on paper, internet, or magazines. i personally like smaller displacement twins, and i've gotten this opinion from my own experience. yes, the triple was smooth, but the twin had a much more consistant powerband, something very important to me when i ride. it also was more than 60 pounds lighter, and i'm not a big guy, so i appreciate that. either way, good topic tfin. oh, and to get more realistic results, the engine weights do need to be taken into account since the additional weight needs more power to move it around.

'99 XC SP 500
Fox shocks stickers- 15 hp
handlebar hooks/riser- 10 hp
red skid plate- 10 hp
red hyfax- 5 hp
running board/edge grips- 20 hp
 

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I know that you didn't write that out but some people also think a triple is just one more cylinder for something to go wrong with. Just my thoughts.

Trees don't make the greatest brakes.
 

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this isnt a twin vs tripple it is a fact sheet of simple math so settle down people.lol finally someone else who understands that torque multiplys threw gearing and hp can never be increased after the engine. one major difference is that torque is for short bursts like the 300-660 foot drags thats were the stock twins did good. they are also geared lower than the old tripples. hp is what moves you down the lake for top end. since torque can be increased with rpm or hp engines on a dyno the tripples will ussually have more hp to bring out off them.
they say the 900 twin will replace the t-cat. not a friggin chance. at the 1000 foot speed runs they were a joke. i talked to some people that ran one against a t-cat and out of the whole the twin had it but after a couple seconds the big cat sllowly pulled on by and just kept gaining ground. if you think your new 600 twin is better racer than your old96 600 tripple tripple my friend you would be in for a rude awakining if you had a chance to play with that thing. i have seen it time and time again at the speed races.
as far as wheight goes on a 1000 foot shaved run 25-30lbs =1mph our on a lake when sleds line up you go a lot farther than that and weight becomes less of an issue. the magizines say how the 600 twin handles so much better than the 700 because of the wieght in the corners. i think it is because the fact that from corner to corner the 700 will be moving that little bit faster making you brake that little bit harder and thus pushing in the corner. the magizines tell us what the factorys want us to hear. other wise no one would have bought a 2001 800 twin from polaris if the magizines said it rides nicer in the bumps but it starts harder get way less milage and has 12-15 less hp than the xcr which all is true.lol

nothing goes like three holes!!!!!!!
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I agree that when it comes down to acutally being out there on the snow, it all comes down to personal preference. If you're not happy with the way a sled "feels" it doesn't matter what the math says. I found the guys post to be interesting because to the math. I don't recall seeing one as detailed in any of the other discussions we've had in the past on the same topic.

Just wanted to see what everyone else thought about it. Anyone else?



1997 XLT SP 600
"Engage the Mechanism"
 

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haha, didn't know i was riled up madcow ;) i don't know where you ride, but it must be pretty flat terrain, but around here we ride moguls, and no triple is gonna keep up. i had one, it was nose heavy, and the nose would drop like an anchor on a jump, but it ran like a banshee on steriods down the straights. all i'm saying is have an open mind with twins, they're also great sleds. it you seems you point out the negative aspects of twins and none concerning triples. i may do the same with triples, but in some of my old posts i praised my old 600, and if i'd stick to trails and lakes it would be a better sled for me. it still comes down to the rider, regardless of the technical aspects of the sleds :)

'99 XC SP 500
Fox shocks stickers- 15 hp
handlebar hooks/riser- 10 hp
red skid plate- 10 hp
red hyfax- 5 hp
running board/edge grips- 20 hp
 

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as xc racer said, numbers dont matter, personal preferences matter.....and this argument can go on forever


 

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i didnt mean to make it sound like you were riled up. i thought someone would come on and say oh no another twin vs tripple argument. and its not that. it is a fact sheet on the different power charecteristics of different engines. i would like ditch banging more but i need a lot higher seat my knees are always hitting my elbows and get tired real fast because my seat is soft and it lets me sink in to much. the trails here go from tight and windy to short open bursts than back into the woods. there are some good open spots to get the carbon out.

nothing goes like three holes!!!!!!!
 

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yeah, i think i'm kinda the one that turned this into a twin vs. triple thread. triples are impressive engines indeed, but it seems sometimes snowmobiles can be considered 'fad' items. twins are the hot item right now, and everyone and their dog wants one it seems. i'm not saying twins are fads, but many people don't consider anything but the popular thing- right now that's twins. triples make excellent sleds as well, but it's gonna take one revolutionary triple to get the mainstream public buying them in amounts over twins.

'99 XC SP 500
Fox shocks stickers- 15 hp
handlebar hooks/riser- 10 hp
red skid plate- 10 hp
red hyfax- 5 hp
running board/edge grips- 20 hp
 

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Discussion Starter #10
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Originally posted by xc racer:
it seems sometimes snowmobiles can be considered 'fad' items. twins are the hot item right now, and everyone and their dog wants one it seems. i'm not saying twins are fads, but many people don't consider anything but the popular thing- right now that's twins.


[/quote]

I think you hit the nail right on the head with this post.




1997 XLT SP 600
"Engage the Mechanism"
 
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